[Dena Qaddumi] 15:04:47 Hello! My name is Dina Kadumi. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:04:53 I'm a fellow in city design and social science at the London School of Economics and Political Science. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:05:00 Welcome to today's event, entitled Decolonial Cities Beyond Justice. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:05:07 This event is a little bit experiential, experimental, dialogical. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:05:15 So thank you all for for coming. We really appreciate it. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:05:20 This a group? Is this event is organized by a group of academics loosely under the rubric called the Decolonial City's Collective. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:05:31 We're an interdisciplinary group of researchers interested in establishing a community of practice towards furthering our commitment, to dec-oniality, social justice, and care in cities. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:05:42 We come from a range of disciplines, geography, politics, visual culture, literature, architecture, urban design, etc. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:05:51 And we work in very different geographies with different relationships. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:05:55 To this question of clonality and deconity. So our group came together. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:06:02 About a year ago, on a workshop organized between the British Academy and the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research and the theme of this workshop was to interrogate what is the good city? [Dena Qaddumi] 15:06:16 And as a result of this workshop, I think we, a group of us, kind of came away questioning this desire to figure out what is a good city, and the kind of a pistemic assumptions that you know point to why we need to ask that question and then how that question gets answered and [Dena Qaddumi] 15:06:37 so what? What we're having today is an outcome of that. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:06:41 Those questioning, and so over the past year, this group of us for about 10 have had very this different meetings and discussions come up with some big questions that we are looking at as we develop this series of dialogues, so I'll just read them out because they might frame this particular conversation. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:07:06 And in another way, or put this conversation within this also larger project. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:07:11 So the first is, how colonialism, coloniality, and colonization define the city and shape its value as a good. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:07:21 Secondly, on what shared basis do we examine this session, violence and extractivism? [Dena Qaddumi] 15:07:26 And contemporary cities, while recognizing their different roles in coloniality and deconiality, whether that's a seller colonial context, post, colonial cities, colonial cities without colony, status, and current informal colonial metroles, thirdly, how are decononiality social justice, and care. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:07:47 entangled in cities, and that's a big question. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:07:50 I'm sure we'll be discussing today. And how do these concepts critically inform each other? [Dena Qaddumi] 15:07:55 And then finally, who gets to conceptualize, narrate, and represent the dec-colonial city, and for whom and what are the ethical and methodological concerns at work in doing so? [Dena Qaddumi] 15:08:08 So, in order to think about these questions, we've organizing a series of dialogues also is a different way to kind of provide a generative space. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:08:19 So many, many, many thanks to our 2 speakers for being the first people to engage with us, and also for all of you for joining us. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:08:29 So today's event has been organized by myself and Bobby Foreignland Research Associate, the University of York. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:08:37 Nallu Vanessa Research Associate, the University of Sheffield and Tensil, Shafiq lecture and urban design at the University of Sheffield. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:08:46 So now I'm gonna hand it over to Bobby, who will introduce this particular event, and our speakers. [Bobby Farnan] 15:08:53 Thanks, Tina, welcome everyone to the first dialogue event for the Dk and all cities collective. [Bobby Farnan] 15:09:01 We're really delighted. We're very fortunate to have heather, Doris and Monica stroll with us today to talk about the economic city is beyond justice. [Bobby Farnan] 15:09:10 As Dina said, the impetus for the formation of the collective was a symposium organized by the British Academy in Cfar, particularly around the question of what is a good city? [Bobby Farnan] 15:09:22 So, you know, addressing this relatively or deceptively simple question directly, seem like a good place to start when we we said about kind of organizing and planning for this first dialogue, and the subsequent conversations we had yielded, I guess you could say a series of [Bobby Farnan] 15:09:40 conceptual problems or themes. This long kind of rich, and history continues, I think, to strike a cord, it goes right to the heart of urban studies. [Bobby Farnan] 15:09:53 So most among these was the relationship that came up consistently in our conversations between justice and the city. [Bobby Farnan] 15:10:02 This relationship has been largely, but not exclusively understood through modern concepts that are rooted in eurocentric epistemology. [Bobby Farnan] 15:10:14 So post-colonial theory has, of course, been attentive to this problematic legacy. [Bobby Farnan] 15:10:21 Variously showing how such scholarship has centered around. [Bobby Farnan] 15:10:26 For instance, notions of equality, rights, and indeed, democracy itself. [Bobby Farnan] 15:10:30 And I think this can potentially are we like to kind of unpack how this is implicated in the reproduction of colonial knowledge practice? [Bobby Farnan] 15:10:40 And it's persistence in our societies. [Bobby Farnan] 15:10:43 So taking the problem as a starting point, point, a departure rather, and drawing from the recent kind of aspirations to the columnized urban studies and society. [Bobby Farnan] 15:10:54 More generally we reminded that that decolonization is not only a distinct project, but also a process and indeed a struggle that can, and frequently does, contradict these hegemonic social justice frameworks so to help us make sense of this we have asked heather and monica to reflect [Bobby Farnan] 15:11:13 on how centering the decolonial city can pluralize our conception of justice and the good city in particular, we opposed 3 questions of consideration to them. [Bobby Farnan] 15:11:26 The first, how the approaches shift conceptions of the good city, secondly, how do you distribute procedural and justice frameworks inform and limit the horizon of the dec colonial city? [Bobby Farnan] 15:11:40 And, lastly, how does centering the colinality, pluralized conceptions of justice in the city through register such as abolition, care, and digitality and ecology? [Bobby Farnan] 15:11:51 So by way of a brief introduction, Doctor Doctor Heather Dorries is an assistant professor, jointly appointed in the Department of Geography and Planning and Center for indigenous studies at University of Toronto, of anishinabe in Settler an [Bobby Farnan] 15:12:06 Ancestry. Her research focuses on the relationship between urban planning and set their colonialism and examines our indigenous intellectual traditions. [Bobby Farnan] 15:12:14 Including environmental knowledge, legal orders and cultural production can service the foundation for justice or agent approaches to planning. [Bobby Farnan] 15:12:24 Our other speaker, Dr. Monica Strill, is a Mary Curry fellow at the Latin American Caribbean Center at Dallas Sea, an urban scholar who research engages with the social production of space urbanization processes and it's an [Bobby Farnan] 15:12:41 inventive methodologies of qualitative research. She's interested in particular, in comparative urbanism and the roleational understanding of urban territory from a post and the colonial perspective. [Bobby Farnan] 15:12:52 So I'd like now to invite Heather and Monica to give an opening statement to remarks before opening the floor to 30 min discussion and and the with the broader audience before I invite you guys to speak. [Bobby Farnan] 15:13:08 I just should mention. Please feel free, everyone to throw some comments and questions into the chat box. [Bobby Farnan] 15:13:15 And Natalie will create these as we go along. [Bobby Farnan] 15:13:18 Okay, thank you. The floor is yours, Monica, and heaven. Thank you. [Heather Dorries] 15:13:26 I think we we didn't just end up deciding beforehand who was gonna gonna go first. [Heather Dorries] 15:13:32 I think I was introduced. First. I'll just jump in, if that's okay. [Heather Dorries] 15:13:39 Yeah, thanks. So much for inviting me. Inviting me here to this discussion. [Heather Dorries] 15:13:47 I think the questions that you've posed, and the agenda that this collective has set out is really interesting and important. [Heather Dorries] 15:13:57 For scholars across a variety of fields, who are interested in in urbanism and planning I'm just gonna get my. [Heather Dorries] 15:14:07 Screen organized here because I have some slides. I wanna I wanna share with you. [Heather Dorries] 15:14:28 Alright. Can you see this? Yes, okay. Terrific. So I'm joining you from today from Toronto. [Heather Dorries] 15:14:38 A place that's also known as De Gueronto, and it's a place that's shaped by many treaties, including the dish with one spoonwoman and a place that's been cared for by Anishinabe and Hoda is showny people from time [Heather Dorries] 15:14:53 immemorial, and as an initiative person. I am also a guest on these territories. [Heather Dorries] 15:15:03 So I wanna talk to a little bit generally about my research and some of the things that motivates me. [Heather Dorries] 15:15:12 And inform the research that I do. I'm an urban planner by training and my research focuses on the ways that planning aids in the establishment and management of a racial property regime. [Heather Dorries] 15:15:25 And in so do encodifies and depoliticizes the de-colorial, the acquisition of territory, while also participating in the criminalization of indigenous resistance, and my research has largely focused on settler colonial States such as Canada. [Heather Dorries] 15:15:43 And in examining the role of planning in solar colonialism, I've been consistently fascinated and horrified by what I see, as a core contradiction in planning. [Heather Dorries] 15:15:58 So, on the one hand, one of the most pervasive beliefs about planning is that that planning is about creating the conditions for living. [Heather Dorries] 15:16:06 Well, and if you look at the mission statements of most professional planning organizations they're going to contain words about making cities for people or creating the economic, social and ecological conditions for growth and development for public benefit, the public and the statement you see here is from the American planning association. [Heather Dorries] 15:16:28 But I think many others associations. The Canadian Planning Association, other places around the world are going to have similar types of statements. [Heather Dorries] 15:16:36 You know, the goal of planning is to maximize the health, safety, and economic well-being of all people living in our communities. [Heather Dorries] 15:16:44 This involves thinking about how we can move around our community. [Heather Dorries] 15:16:46 How can we? We can attract and retain thriving businesses where we want to live? [Heather Dorries] 15:16:50 And opportunities, correct recreation, planning helps create communities of lasting value. [Heather Dorries] 15:16:57 And I think, even in this statement, it's already clear how these goals are situated within, and very much compatible with a capitalist social economic framework. [Heather Dorries] 15:17:09 So this is one of the guiding principles of professionalized planning. [Heather Dorries] 15:17:15 I think. On the other hand, despite all of these commitments to creating the conditions of life in the context of settler colonialism, I think planning is also very much a project about death seller colonialism requires not only the dispossession but the death of indigenous and [Heather Dorries] 15:17:36 racialized people. So in this way planning advances and reflects the necropolitical structure of settler colonialism in planning for the public planning calls a certain kind of public into being through processes that determine who matters, and who does not whose voices matter and who's [Heather Dorries] 15:17:57 don't. And so planning spatializes, racial regimes of property that are part of a legal framework, upon which planning relies, and which assign human life value to human life according to a racial hierarchy, and I think this the spatialization, of this racial [Heather Dorries] 15:18:18 hierarchy is very well apparent in cities, and results in the under development of racialized neighborhoods. [Heather Dorries] 15:18:25 The under aunding of housing, transportation, recreation, facilities, and a variety of other services. [Heather Dorries] 15:18:31 Typically within the domain of planning and local government, and consequently cities not only failed to provide, but also withholds, the requirements of life for the most vulnerable people also very often racialized people, and so planning is not only implicated in settler colonialism but in the [Heather Dorries] 15:18:55 targeted death of urban places and urban life, a process that black study Scholar Katherine Mckichrick calls herbicide, or the deliberate death of a city, and will face annihilation. [Heather Dorries] 15:19:09 So, of course, this is the challenge that we are confronted with as follows, I think one of the key elements then, in advancing a decolonial approach is thinking about the kinds of epistemological, but also ontological shifts that can change both planning theories. [Heather Dorries] 15:19:32 and practices or theories, and our practices of urbanism. [Heather Dorries] 15:19:38 So this brings us, I think, 2 questions about justice. [Heather Dorries] 15:19:45 Many of the interventions suggested by planners for decolonizing planning have tended to focus on state focused strategies and rely on State recognition for securing indigenous rights with the rights of vulnerable people. [Heather Dorries] 15:20:02 I think this reliance on recognition allows planning theorists to preserve Planning's identity as a progressive discipline by positioning indigenous peoples as a beneficialies of improved planning practices in ways in which the in which the recognition of [Heather Dorries] 15:20:23 historic injustice and planning is presented as a way of offering planners an opportunity to rectify the negative effects of colonialism, so approaches to planning that emphasize record recognition or participation of indigenous peoples within existing planning frameworks [Heather Dorries] 15:20:43 rest on the assumption that these existing frameworks are fundamentally progressive, and they are failed to confront the fact that planning is often mobilized as part of a larger colonial complex that serves the dispossession and assimilation of indigenous peoples and so at the [Heather Dorries] 15:21:04 same time that planning or planning theorists are thinking about justice, and often relying on Western frameworks to think about justice. [Heather Dorries] 15:21:13 I don't think that planning theorists have sustained a conversation with the fields of black studies or indigenous studies, despite the important contributions that scholar in these fields have made in theorizing what the relationship between settler colonialism slavery and Western [Heather Dorries] 15:21:33 Liberalism, and so urban is run the risk of reproducing the logic of settler colonialism, even as they attempt to set a decolonial agenda and planning by evacuating those intellectual condition contributions of indigenous peoples from planning [Heather Dorries] 15:21:51 theory, and not attending to the specific demands and requirements of decolonization. [Heather Dorries] 15:22:00 So what exactly does indigenous thought and practice have to offer? [Heather Dorries] 15:22:10 You know people who are you trying to think about different ways of thinking about and theorizing the city one of the things that I have turned to in my research is looking to social movements, not just as a reaction or pro tech forms of protest against inequality and injustice in cities but actually [Heather Dorries] 15:22:36 as a way of theorizing and practicing alternative ways of making urban life wouldn't be the examples that I like to talk about, because it's quite well known, is the idle no more movement which started in in 2012 and 2013 and it it started regularly relatively innocuously when [Heather Dorries] 15:23:02 4 women, 3 indigenous women, women and one settler woman came together to organize a teach-in, highlighting. [Heather Dorries] 15:23:10 The impacts of bills proposed by the Canadian Government that would scale back environmental protections in order to facilitate resource development in indigenous territories. [Heather Dorries] 15:23:25 It began as a series of public actions and teachings to taking place in both urban and rural spaces that would highlight how industrial extraction would affect indigenous territories, but also identify the kinds of resource and financial spaces that [Heather Dorries] 15:23:46 were part of these processes, and one of the things that eventually came to symbolize. [Heather Dorries] 15:23:54 I don't know more, was the round dance right, and people were dancing in shopping. [Heather Dorries] 15:23:59 Malls, urban intersections, and thoroughfares, and also in in government buildings. [Heather Dorries] 15:24:05 And these round dances came to symbolize the movement. And there's significant because they carried both spiritual and historical meaning. [Heather Dorries] 15:24:15 These are dances that have been outlawed by the Indian Act. [Heather Dorries] 15:24:19 So they were forbidden by law, but they have survived as an expression of indigenous spirituality, and in the face of its prohibit prohibition, as an act of resistance that connects present struggles to those of the past. [Heather Dorries] 15:24:37 And I think these speakers of social movements and instances of direct action need to be understood within them. [Heather Dorries] 15:24:47 A much longer history of indigenous political organization and resistance. [Heather Dorries] 15:24:53 And I think they help us to think about social movements as configuring spatial processes around a politics of life right rather than a politics of death. [Heather Dorries] 15:25:05 And Nick Estes explains this really well in his book. [Heather Dorries] 15:25:08 Are. He is the future, and he says, decades of indigenous resistance. [Heather Dorries] 15:25:13 Movements have shown that our ancestors of indigenous resistance didn't merely fight against settler colonialism. [Heather Dorries] 15:25:22 They fought for indigenous life and just relations with human and non-human relatives, and with the earth. [Heather Dorries] 15:25:29 This is something that Leanne Simpson also talks about in her discussion of blockade strategies, where she explains that blockades are not just a refusal of dominance systems, but also rich sites of indigenous life. [Heather Dorries] 15:25:44 And she explains how spaces behind the barricades are filled with ceremony, songs, storytelling, practices of care, as well as embodied and relational practices of collective deliberation and decision making. [Heather Dorries] 15:26:01 So these social movements are expressions of political authority that engage cultural and spiritual practices through ceremony and activate land relationships by reminding us of our obligations, and they accomplished all of this while reclaiming space without the permission of colonial governance structures or [Heather Dorries] 15:26:21 planning authorities. I think crucially they're not just about stopping specific projects or policies, but really reflect a vision for anti-colonial and anti oppressive forms of resistance that don't rely on state managed process, but rather on liberatory practices that foreground and promote [Heather Dorries] 15:26:44 the creation of alternative alternative modes of being so. [Heather Dorries] 15:26:51 I'm gonna conclude there and pass it on to Monica. Thank you. [Monika Streule] 15:27:05 Thank you, Heather. I would just. [Monika Streule] 15:27:11 First of all, share my screen. [Monika Streule] 15:27:46 Okay. I hope you can see this. [Tanzil Shafique] 15:27:51 Yeah. Cool. Good. [Monika Streule] 15:27:53 Great. But before I start, thank you very much. [Monika Streule] 15:28:03 Dan Seal, Dena Poppy, and for the invitation to join this conversation today, and I will base my opening statement on my longstanding experience and research in and on Mexico City, and I understand that some of you have read my eye to article on decolonized perspectives in current [Monika Streule] 15:28:24 urban research. I wrote together with my colleague, Ankes Schwartz, some years ago, and I'm also, of course, looking forward to answer any questions or comments that might have come up from this in the discussion. [Monika Streule] 15:28:40 Also, I would like to say something about the images I will show during my opening statement. [Monika Streule] 15:28:50 These images I show, by my friend, collaborator, and most generous dreams and commitment to environmental justice. [Monika Streule] 15:29:04 In Toula and Thomas Kitale Valley, in Central Mexico, ended abruptly because of his very disturbing and still not fully investigated death. [Monika Streule] 15:29:15 Earlier this year, and with this I'd like to join the call for an investigation into the circumstances of his death, and that the responsible authorities investigate. [Monika Streule] 15:29:27 It's possible connection to his academic and journalistic work. [Monika Streule] 15:29:32 The images do not illustrate what I will say. [Monika Streule] 15:29:36 They have their own narration about the flooding of the river Tula in Irago, Mexico, with. [Monika Streule] 15:29:50 So the organizers were asking us to refund and think about, and 3 questions, and the first of it of how do decoronial approaches shift conceptions of the good city? [Monika Streule] 15:30:05 And I think here I would like to go one step back and ask, what is the actually the good city? [Monika Streule] 15:30:15 It is from the first side. It is an Utopian. [Monika Streule] 15:30:22 Noion, it is plural, and maybe also diverse, although diversifying. [Monika Streule] 15:30:30 This notion often remains very superficial, and is not the same like decolonizing, and this notion, which aims much more to make a real change. [Monika Streule] 15:30:42 I also think of when I read the good Ct. I think of difference, equality, and the right to the city, which also is problematic, I think because equality, not just. [Monika Streule] 15:30:57 It's like, unproblematic, because it also helps to turn a blind eye to his historical differences. [Monika Streule] 15:31:05 I think. And furthermore, it's also concepts like city in the claim for a right to the city have to be problematized, because in this case it is also not neutral, but often understood as an universal rooted in Eurocentic epistemology, many of us have a certain idea of [Monika Streule] 15:31:31 what a city is, and could be, and I think it's important to ask how to UN sync something. [Monika Streule] 15:31:40 You don't know that you are thinking. [Monika Streule] 15:31:45 In negotiating the inherent tension between the Normative and situated in the search for the ideas and actually existing expressions of the good city. [Monika Streule] 15:31:55 It's important, in fact, at to to build and and to have concepts that enables us to rescind what cities can be in this regard. [Monika Streule] 15:32:08 One promising approach is the development of novel, social, spatial, and non-imperial. Geo. [Monika Streule] 15:32:14 Historical categories, like Fernando Coronill, wrote in 1996, and it's such categories that could be valuable tools to critically address the othering processes that are deeply embedded in my work is strongly influenced by current [Monika Streule] 15:32:35 debates of Latin, American urbanisms, in which Post and the colonial scholars push for a decentering of spatial imaginations. [Monika Streule] 15:32:44 So instance, Ella Maya diagnosis, a cognitive crisis concerning the city as a spatial framework for understanding Latin American territories. [Monika Streule] 15:32:56 It is against this theoretical background that I suggest elaborating on a relational concept of urban territory in my study territory proved to be a particularly apt tool for studying urbanization in Mexico city rather than using an analytical frame such as city [Monika Streule] 15:33:14 or urban space territory is a violate. [Monika Streule] 15:33:19 This cost term in Latin America, urbanisms, and is understood as a relational social product deeply shaped by unequal power relations. [Monika Streule] 15:33:28 Yet it is still relatively unknown in the Angloform context. [Monika Streule] 15:33:32 I mean in this understanding. [Monika Streule] 15:33:37 Current, contestations in the urban peripheries of Mexico City involve indigenous social, territorial movements the as they are known as Webblos or hinarios, so the indigenous villages that webles or theinarios and they frame their [Monika Streule] 15:33:56 struggles against infrastructure. Mega projects as struggles for life, struggles for life, territory, and water, advocating for a more responsible and accountable use of natural resources. [Monika Streule] 15:34:09 Based on this, I suggest to broaden the concept of urban extractivism, to address these pressing challenges of urban transformations and expand the definition of ethics, strategies and strives to gain new perspectives and possible other ways of relating to urban natural values that allow the [Monika Streule] 15:34:29 sustenance of lives. [Monika Streule] 15:34:31 These are existential matters, proactos Delaware, the deaths, projects as the infrastructure projects are called by the communities in the region, contemplate new airports, toll highways, cement industry, hydroelectric plants, and make our infrastructures. [Monika Streule] 15:34:51 Of a wastewater treatment tunnel if you are not some vintage state, environmental health dishonesty, sacrificial, the sacrifice zones in which people and their existing or desired land use practices are sacrificed in the name of economic growth, and development and where there [Monika Streule] 15:35:08 is substantial evidence of health issues related to environmental toxins. [Monika Streule] 15:35:14 This is not a regional or national problem. The role of transnational corporations operating in these areas is key. [Monika Streule] 15:35:24 In a mapping workshop with the local community organizing to defend our water and territory. [Monika Streule] 15:35:31 I was told. We don't want your solidarity. [Monika Streule] 15:35:33 We want you to join the struggles. As Alice. [Monika Streule] 15:35:38 What are the lessons these movements are teaching us? What has to be unlearned? [Monika Streule] 15:35:45 Again coming back to the question, How do the colonial approaches shift conceptions of the good city? [Monika Streule] 15:35:54 So, maybe instead of asking, What is the good city, we could also ask, What is a good life as one of the horizontal concepts that have emerged from critical analysis, languages, and practices of social movements across Latin America others are for instance, rights of nature commons or the ethics, of care despite [Monika Streule] 15:36:19 the differences that certainly exists among these concepts. All of them share a focus on different forms of human and non-human relationships. [Monika Streule] 15:36:29 I think it's important to highlight that current Ntt. [Monika Streule] 15:36:34 Colonial discourses and practicing Latin America are also often very closely linked to feminist approaches, such as the before mentioned, social, territorial perspective, who builds strongly on feminist theory and also relations to humans and non-humans, or particularly the ethics of care and all of [Monika Streule] 15:36:56 the or image this discourse and movement, I think they show us possible ways of relating to urban nature, otherwise. [Monika Streule] 15:37:10 How do we have to rethink, then, the practices of serial building and the production and handling of empirical data? [Monika Streule] 15:37:20 Bye, critically engaging with my own positionality the approaches I focus on include building bridges, waving networks, engaging in the politics of translation. [Monika Streule] 15:37:32 My research practice aims to decolonize urban theory, a practice that builds on collaboration on everyday experience as a site of knowing and knowledge production and on theory code production. [Monika Streule] 15:37:46 It also uses other media informats to share knowledge, like the podcasting titles on extractorisms, dialogues, and contested practices of radio extraction in Latin America. [Monika Streule] 15:37:57 I'm currently working on in a collective of researchers and activists from Mexico and Switzerland. [Monika Streule] 15:38:06 This certainly speaks to another key questions which actually Dina was mentioning in the introduction. [Monika Streule] 15:38:12 Who gets to conceptualize, narrate, and represent that the colonial city, and for whom? [Monika Streule] 15:38:18 And here I would like to add, any, what language, what are the ethical and methodological concerns at work in doing so? [Monika Streule] 15:38:31 How does centering the coloniality pluralize conception of justice in the city through Rochester, such as abolition care in the tin, 19. Ecology? [Monika Streule] 15:38:42 Another question we were ask to reflect about. [Monika Streule] 15:38:48 My current project, entitled Decolonizing Ecology, is about pluralizing concepts of the urban and the natural aiming to forge other knowledge, practices, and actions. [Monika Streule] 15:39:01 The project position itself, in short, contrast to what John Law coined as a one world world that assumes that there is one single object, and that it looks different because different people have different viewpoints or different techniques for exploring it instead, what I'm interested in is that realities. [Monika Streule] 15:39:23 Are being done in practices. [Monika Streule] 15:39:29 Witnessing this this possession, violence and extractivism in contemporary cities is an urgent call to rescind concepts of the urban, the natural, and also of urban value. [Monika Streule] 15:39:42 Hey! Current struggles against prestigious urban mega projects in Mexico City as a starting point, and particularly the claims made by the shows, not only the importance of advancing concepts, such as burning extractorism, but also of rethinking established notions of [Monika Streule] 15:40:02 value, and asking what is actually exploited by neocolonial extractive operations. [Monika Streule] 15:40:07 In these cases. [Monika Streule] 15:40:11 In a recent paper published in Urban Geography. [Monika Streule] 15:40:13 I argued that an extended concept of urban extractorism might be useful because it provides a frame to rethink urban value which usually is abstracted from each social territorial, experimental, and embodied underpinnings value, then continues to play a key [Monika Streule] 15:40:31 role for understanding urban transformation. But economic value does not govern and condition and condition all social relations. [Monika Streule] 15:40:42 So this brief reflection on our value brings me back again to the first question. [Monika Streule] 15:40:48 But is the good city justice in the city should be so together. [Monika Streule] 15:40:54 I would say, this environmental justice and this all very interesting link between pressing, ecological and urban questions. [Monika Streule] 15:41:02 It's compelling to also discuss this as an ontological question, referring here to the Ontario term as discussed in current, cultural and social anthropology, by using ontology as a heuristic device, I X amount different practices to build concepts across urban [Monika Streule] 15:41:25 realities, avoiding culturalistic and this centralizing descriptions by pluralizing concepts such as city nature and urban value. [Monika Streule] 15:41:35 We can understand the good city as an urban territory where many worlds fit. [Monika Streule] 15:41:41 Thank you. [Bobby Farnan] 15:41:51 Thanks. Heather and Monica, for some really really interesting reflections. [Bobby Farnan] 15:41:56 I wonder if Heather, would you like to respond to Monica, or vice versa before? [Bobby Farnan] 15:42:04 Did, and I kind of get in with some questions or comments. [Heather Dorries] 15:42:13 I guess I mean one thing. I that stands out to me right off the top is that these concepts of life and death, which seems so. [Heather Dorries] 15:42:22 Central, you know when, but also seem like a really a potentially fruitful way of thinking across different geographic and ethno-political contexts. [Heather Dorries] 15:42:41 You know one of the challenges that I see working in. [Heather Dorries] 15:42:45 I mean in indigenous studies, working in urban studies, and thinking about the ways that you know. [Heather Dorries] 15:42:51 I recognize that there's some limitations, some serious limitations to the framework of settler colonialism, and particularly the way it ititizes particular geographies, experiences, and languages, but it seems like the the notion of a politics of life, right which is something common to everyone [Heather Dorries] 15:43:14 globally like I think it. It's something we can agree on that that people are prioritizing and thinking very carefully about. [Heather Dorries] 15:43:21 What is it that makes a good life? And they're requirements for life being, you know, fundamentally this same across geographies are, it's a really, I think you know, useful way to begin thinking. [Heather Dorries] 15:43:40 I think maybe relationally across geographies rather than comparatively, which I think is always the the tendency, and through which I think a lot of things get potentially lost. [Heather Dorries] 15:43:54 So I appreciate your comments there, Monica, thank you for that. [Monika Streule] 15:44:04 Yes, actually, when I was hearing your present, you first presentation, you starting. [Monika Streule] 15:44:13 It's also what what really? [Monika Streule] 15:44:17 Was very present for me, and. [Monika Streule] 15:44:22 And at the other hand well, I think where we also have have referred to both of ours is like this, not only epistemological, but also on ontological shift, and and in this, on understanding of of pluralize, you know pluralize what what a good [Monika Streule] 15:44:44 city it could be, and not so much of this essentializing. [Monika Streule] 15:44:49 Certain experiences, or certain geographies, or or whatever, but but that it could be very helpful to sync it also. [Monika Streule] 15:44:59 In this Richester. I think that was also something that I found very interesting between our 2 opening statements. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:45:21 Thanks. Did you wanna jump in, Bobby, or? [Bobby Farnan] 15:45:25 You can go ahead, and then I'll follow over with some thoughts. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:45:32 Okay, I'm trying to get all my thoughts together. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:45:36 So first, just thank you both. It's super interesting to see your reflections on the prompt, and also from your different geographies and your different disciplines, and and how those then, do have some commonalities. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:45:51 Despite this differences, maybe just I mean, this is a little I wasn't planning to take the conversation here, but Heather, since you brought this up about the how the set their colonial framework ends up privileging certain sites, Monica I'm wondering if in [Dena Qaddumi] 15:46:08 your work in Mexico, Mexico City, and maybe you're also working in South America now as well like does the cellular colonial framework come up at all in that? [Dena Qaddumi] 15:46:23 In that discussion of coiality and urbanity, and I'm curious how it appears differently than in North America. [Monika Streule] 15:46:35 Thank you. I think that's a very interesting question. And Hmm! [Monika Streule] 15:46:41 Here. I think there is a big difference. It's also rooted in in a different colonial history and colonization. [Monika Streule] 15:46:53 And I think the big. The big difference is that colonization. [Monika Streule] 15:46:59 I mean that that the act of colonization in Latin America is 500, more than 500 years ago, and so I think it's a still, it's a very present memory. [Monika Streule] 15:47:14 Mostly also. Now by this. [Monika Streule] 15:47:22 Strong, indigenous movements was actually, since the nineties are being very present in also more and more in in the public discourse. [Monika Streule] 15:47:35 So, but nevertheless, yeah, I think that's a big difference. [Monika Streule] 15:47:38 The colonial history, but very comes up, and I think there is also not shit to think about and to engage with is also this now new colonial practices. [Monika Streule] 15:47:54 Neo-connonium Practices of Extractivism. [Monika Streule] 15:47:58 And so I think here, it's really extractivism, so plural in the sense of it, is in this particular works, in many, in many places and on many levels. [Monika Streule] 15:48:13 So to have, like a broad perspective of what extractive reasons is. [Monika Streule] 15:48:17 And so I'm now very much interested in what he can, but could be urban extractivism. [Monika Streule] 15:48:24 So what? Go a little bit away from this really like resource? [Monika Streule] 15:48:31 Extraction of minds. For instance, where you really quickly would link the term of extractive isn't to see what is like urban transformation. [Monika Streule] 15:48:43 Have this could be grabbed, as in this sense. [Monika Streule] 15:48:48 Now, with this notion, and I think there are these new colonial policies and programs which are also very close to. [Monika Streule] 15:48:58 Still to a discussion of developmentalism. I think there is some links which I think is beyond the Latin America. [Monika Streule] 15:49:09 Experience. Let's say like this. So I think it's really he's historically this difference, this different. [Monika Streule] 15:49:19 But in the present time also very close and into linked situation. [Monika Streule] 15:49:27 A little bit like this. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:49:32 Thank you, Heather. Do you wanna respond to that? [Heather Dorries] 15:49:43 I'm not sure I mean. [Heather Dorries] 15:49:48 When I'm thinking about the limitations of settler colonialism, I guess I'm thinking about precisely these kinds of limitations in it, because because I think so much of the scholarship on seller colonialism is being produced in. [Heather Dorries] 15:50:08 Well, former settler colonies, but in also an English-speaking context, right? [Heather Dorries] 15:50:14 This comes to dominate a lot of the literature where it's applicability, you know, across contexts is not always clear also, I think it's tendency to raise particular types articulations of indigeneity in you know, places outside of settler colonies like thinking about [Heather Dorries] 15:50:39 indigeneity in the African continent or in in Asia, like the seller, colonialism does not do well outside of these, you know its original context. [Heather Dorries] 15:50:50 And so I think it's, you know, while we're talking about epistemological and ontoological ships, I think you know, thinking about the limitations of some of these categories, and their applicability is part of is part of doing that work. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:51:10 Thanks. I mean may be related to that. I wonder if you one to expand on this? [Dena Qaddumi] 15:51:20 No, notion of indigeneity and urbanism, and how those come together, and I mean related my work, for some of my work comes from the Middle East and from Palestine. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:51:33 So that's another seller colonial context where indigenous people are increasingly being, you know, divorced from urban areas, and who, we consider indigenous. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:51:46 And I found your work in that and kind of dealing with that binary quite forfully. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:51:54 Really inspiring. So maybe if you could expand on that a little bit, and how you relate that to decononial thinking about urban studies. [Heather Dorries] 15:52:04 Yeah, I mean, I think those are 2 really interesting concepts. [Heather Dorries] 15:52:09 I think, at least in the context, that I'm working on. [Heather Dorries] 15:52:12 You know when I'm thinking about Canadian indigenous peoples. [Heather Dorries] 15:52:16 And I'm thinking about urbanism in Canada. [Heather Dorries] 15:52:20 Both of these concepts, right? Whether it's indigeneity or urbanism, their their concepts and their their processes that have been really strongly configured by processes of colonialism, so it's really hard to think about indigeneity or urbanism and to kind of separate those from colonial [Heather Dorries] 15:52:42 colonial processes, and so that I mean that in itself poses a question like, can we even think about an alternative urbanism or an indigenous urbanism? [Heather Dorries] 15:52:54 That is anti-colonial or decolonial, and we have to start asking questions like, Well, what are what are the conditions under which urbanism? [Heather Dorries] 15:53:03 Might be indigenous, or anti-colonial, or decolonial. [Heather Dorries] 15:53:08 When these processes are always entangled with colonialism, I think one of the you know where I get to and my thinking on that is that these processes are always gonna be. [Heather Dorries] 15:53:21 You know the potentially liberatory right. There are forms of city-making. [Heather Dorries] 15:53:28 There are forms of urbanization. There are opportunities for the city for city making to create the conditions for life right? [Heather Dorries] 15:53:39 Self, determined, indigenous life, but at the same time it's not you know, urbanization is not automatically gonna be. [Heather Dorries] 15:53:50 In in any case, in any form going to be necessarily liberatory, it can always be potentially colonial. [Heather Dorries] 15:53:59 It's it's dependent on processes, right? [Heather Dorries] 15:54:02 It's not it's not an endpoint right? [Heather Dorries] 15:54:05 It's not a thing that we're going to create right? [Heather Dorries] 15:54:07 There is not a decolonial city that will, you know, exist physically. [Heather Dorries] 15:54:12 It's always gonna be the product of sets of apps and the kinds of relations that are able to manage. [Heather Dorries] 15:54:24 In that, in those spaces. [Dena Qaddumi] 15:54:29 I love that kind of framing, you know. How do we think about city making as a laboratory process? [Dena Qaddumi] 15:54:36 I think, then points to very different spaces and ways of working together. Bobby, do you wanna jump in with? [Bobby Farnan] 15:54:48 Yeah, sounds good. I think this is probably a good point. [Bobby Farnan] 15:54:52 Cause. I think that question of how we can sync the conditions for imagining a kind of indigenous or dec colonial organism is, is is such an interesting one. [Bobby Farnan] 15:55:04 So I was struck in both your thoughts that well, the emphasis placed on kind of the spatial imaginaries, epistemic, ontological categories of coloniality under persistence and overturning or challenging of these categories as big twice central [Bobby Farnan] 15:55:23 to the colonization. Obviously, so, my question or, yeah? [Bobby Farnan] 15:55:29 So I'm not gonna do a question. Comment. But my question, my question is around this kind of persistent problem of kind of naturalism or assigned to the classification that's bound up in the colonial project. [Bobby Farnan] 15:55:42 The manifest, and you know the discipline of anthropology. [Bobby Farnan] 15:55:45 Various other yeah, academic disciplines. And the kind of pre software. [Bobby Farnan] 15:55:53 That kind of notion entails. For instance, you know the biification of the subject from the natural world, the establishment of positions of expertise that such a binary kind of constitutes, you know, these seems to be very intractable, a very intractable legacy. [Bobby Farnan] 15:56:12 So my question is around, how? [Bobby Farnan] 15:56:15 How politics of life can or should contend with this legacy. [Bobby Farnan] 15:56:20 What are the limits of contending with the authority? [Bobby Farnan] 15:56:23 Legitimacy that techno science has conferred upon upon our world. [Bobby Farnan] 15:56:30 You know, in relation to planning, for instance, in relation to monuments and developmentalism as well, and the logics around that. [Bobby Farnan] 15:56:39 So I. My question is around that problem. [Bobby Farnan] 15:56:41 And how to engage with it in a way that might be productive as well. [Bobby Farnan] 15:56:47 If, or indeed, if it can be engaged with productively, without necessarily also transforming the processes by which it subjugates alternative forms of habitation, and relating to the world into each other. [Bobby Farnan] 15:57:04 So that's a kind of a broad, I guess. [Bobby Farnan] 15:57:06 One question. I have another one around planning and depolarization. But perhaps we can come to that bit later. [Monika Streule] 15:57:16 Maybe heather. You would like to start because I not really sure if I get really the point of the question. [Monika Streule] 15:57:23 So maybe I can think a little bit more. [Heather Dorries] 15:57:31 Sure, I guess, when you were talking about processes of classification. [Heather Dorries] 15:57:40 Well, I mean, I was thinking about particular, I need so so many practices, whether there are planning related urban related science. [Heather Dorries] 15:57:52 And that's something you brought up techno science. These are all practices about naming things right like so much of science is about when you're building typologies, figuring out where things fit within particular typologies. [Heather Dorries] 15:58:07 It's it's the practices of ordering, ordering the world right. [Heather Dorries] 15:58:11 And, I think, planning falls within that right. It's a very particular way of thinking about and ordering the world. [Heather Dorries] 15:58:21 And so if we're talking about ontological shifts, you know, thinking differently. [Heather Dorries] 15:58:28 Thank you. Differently about the processes and practices. One of the things that is suggested by indigenous epistemologies, indigenous. [Heather Dorries] 15:58:43 And I'm thinking again more specifically about Anishinabe or Holden, is Sony approaches to thinking about. [Heather Dorries] 15:58:51 Their knowledge and knowledge, production. And these are the contexts that I'm familiar with. [Heather Dorries] 15:58:57 The thing that's always displaced in the foreground. [Heather Dorries] 15:58:59 You know, rather than typologies or hierarchies is relations and relational approaches to organizing knowledge, and there's still, you know, we would still classify things and name things. [Heather Dorries] 15:59:13 But things are often named and classified, based on their function, and more specifically on the you know, the ethical obligations, and that the ethical components of relations that arise when we think about everything being en relation and be existing for the purposes of promoting life so everything within a you know [Heather Dorries] 15:59:42 a system, whether it's a ecological system or a social system. Yeah, it's gonna have some kind of set of ethical obligations that arise from its relations, right? [Heather Dorries] 15:59:55 The purpose of water is to help purify things. [Heather Dorries] 15:59:58 That is one of its obligations, and if it's not doing that, then you know, humans or other parts of the ecosystem have the obligation to help water perform its duty. [Heather Dorries] 16:00:16 I can't remember where I was going with that, but I'll just maybe just conclude by saying so. [Heather Dorries] 16:00:23 If I'm thinking about how that then might come to bear be brought to bear on planning, it's like thinking about finding those relations, you know. [Heather Dorries] 16:00:30 What are the things that are are necessary in a place for the life, and supporting those relations and maybe that's ultimately not that different from from what planners are already doing. [Heather Dorries] 16:00:44 But there's a very different ethos there, right if I look back to that comment about what planning is all about right. It was about. [Heather Dorries] 16:00:52 It was ultimately about economic and capitalist development. And when we look at relations that are you know, really about making life, there's something different that happens there, right? [Heather Dorries] 16:01:06 Because we have. We have to place life-giving life preserving relations in the foreground, right? [Monika Streule] 16:01:23 Yes, I think, as I understand your question, it also very much links to to the initial question you post for this for this conversation. [Monika Streule] 16:01:36 It's like also what the other, the limits and possibilities of framework, such as recognition. [Monika Streule] 16:01:47 You know, and how is it? Maybe also limiting the colonial city? [Monika Streule] 16:01:53 And I think that is very, a very good question, because it points towards the contradiction which we also can find here. [Monika Streule] 16:02:03 And, for instance, just in these days in Mexico there is also kind of a backlash in this recognition framework of the Pueblosauri scenarios. [Monika Streule] 16:02:24 So just to give you a bit more context about that, there are just in in the in the center of the city of Mexico City. [Monika Streule] 16:02:32 So it's. It's just about one third of the metropolitan area of 20 million inhabitants. [Monika Streule] 16:02:41 So just in the one thirdthird of Mexico City, called Uhhuh. [Monika Streule] 16:02:51 So in there, only there are a hundred 39 webbles already. [Monika Streule] 16:02:58 Scenarios, and 58 neighborhoods, or or scenarios. So it's it's not a minority actually. [Monika Streule] 16:03:05 And when I talk about the backlash, this is a new official register of the Webbles, and and barriers or scenarios that is right now being done by the city government, and it's so. [Monika Streule] 16:03:24 They already have this register. Having these numbers of the, but now they want to do a new register, and and then only by the new registered webblows. [Monika Streule] 16:03:41 Only to them the rights will be granted. So you know. [Monika Streule] 16:03:45 So it's it's like, Okay, yes, we record price, you, the government says, but only the ones we think are eligible, eligible how you say, yeah, you know. [Monika Streule] 16:03:58 So this is a contrary to the principle of sales description, you know, which is one of the fundamental rights in terms of the rights of indigenous people, and self-scription means that the people are the ones who decide if they consider themselves as pueblo orinario or [Monika Streule] 16:04:18 not, and they have their own institutions, their own. They live in the parts of the city that existed before the colony. And so I think it's important to see that this kind of frameworks, these kind of categories like recognition, can also have a very limiting. [Monika Streule] 16:04:47 Quality for the colonial city. So it's not always like for the goods and what it's going on. [Monika Streule] 16:04:56 And yeah, just keep this in mind as well. I think that's important. [Bobby Farnan] 16:05:10 Can can I jump in here one more time? Really, really kind of interesting, I think, with the conversation at the moment. [Bobby Farnan] 16:05:19 Heather, I found that really quite illuminating kind of drawing out the obviously the role of naming couldification in kind of techno scientific processes, but also that point around the necessary kind of ethical, moral kind of discursive structures that support such a naming [Bobby Farnan] 16:05:39 process and then the obligations or lack thereof, that potentially entailed by that. [Bobby Farnan] 16:05:44 And I suppose, relatedly, I wonder about the role of countermapping, or you know, foregrounding them privilege to such naming processes. [Bobby Farnan] 16:05:57 The limits and the extent to which countermapping can then resurface. [Bobby Farnan] 16:06:02 Forms of marginalized knowledge, and so forth. Wonder if it's both? [Bobby Farnan] 16:06:07 You could maybe reflect and speak a little bit from your own experience. [Bobby Farnan] 16:06:10 If you engage in such one. [Heather Dorries] 16:06:24 Monica, do you wanna respond? [Monika Streule] 16:06:29 Yes, yes, actually, I think that's a very that's wonderful. [Monika Streule] 16:06:34 Of the practices and message. I engage a lot into, and it's the counter mapping projects, but also that's quite a dominant thing right now, or a widespread thing. [Monika Streule] 16:06:53 It's the community mapping. And so it's really like a collective mapping exercise to map the knowledge is and experiences of community and and. [Monika Streule] 16:07:08 I think that's a very necessary and important exercise to do, because it that it's not just like these numbers, you know. [Monika Streule] 16:07:19 I can tell you. It's about nearly 200 where those are scenarios in Mexico City, but it's also then you can geographically locate them in the Territory, and this also tells you a totally different story. [Monika Streule] 16:07:37 No about. Hmm! [Monika Streule] 16:07:44 About these topics. For instance, in Mexico City the most of the quarter scenarios are located in the South, which is Covid. [Monika Streule] 16:07:56 The hill towards the volcano. And so this is also at the the where the main water recharge areas are for the Mexico cities on the ground equipped. [Monika Streule] 16:08:11 So then you also can see. So why? Why these demands? [Monika Streule] 16:08:16 And by defending and and the struggle for life and territory and and water is so important, you know, for for these communities, because it's they, it's their everyday life and enter history, and also like to find new ways of representing these lives and histories and and memories and I [Monika Streule] 16:08:42 think mapping can really be a one of these very open, and inventive messages, tool to approach, and we present this kind of knowledge. [Monika Streule] 16:08:55 Yeah. [Heather Dorries] 16:09:05 If I could also respond respond to that question, because I think it's really it's a really great question. [Heather Dorries] 16:09:12 I actually have a little slide can show you. So this is the these pictures that you're seeing. [Heather Dorries] 16:09:21 Are part of the work of a Toronto based group called Ogima Micana, and it was. [Heather Dorries] 16:09:28 It was another initiative that was spawned by the I don't know more movement. One of the things that they started out doing was putting up alternative street signs right? [Heather Dorries] 16:09:41 So renaming streets in Toronto. And in this picture you see here on the left, at the top, they've renamed a street originally called Indian Road, which is a street I used to live on, and they've given Anishinabe name. [Heather Dorries] 16:10:00 Anishinaabeba win, and they did this throughout or throughout the city, and it was it was the purpose, I think, was to draw attention to the indigenous. [Heather Dorries] 16:10:10 History is of Toronto, and I think Toronto is a city that has a lot of amnesia about its it's origins as a colonial place, and I can see from experience that this is also something that is reflected or was reflected in planning school when I was [Heather Dorries] 16:10:28 studying, planning like we never bizarrely, never talked about Charles history with just kind of like. [Heather Dorries] 16:10:34 Well, you're the planners. You will plan it and do as you see fit. [Heather Dorries] 16:10:38 And there was no one here before, so go ahead, for the experts. [Heather Dorries] 16:10:43 What? Okay? Marikina has gone on to do is not a of projects such as this billboard project, so you they've got you know, this billboard and a downtown location with a picture of the dish with one spoon, which is a pre-colonial [Heather Dorries] 16:11:03 agreement made between that the people that occupied this place cared for this place, lived in this place, governed this place before the arrival of Europeans, and it was an agreement about how the place would be shared, and how mutual survival would be insured, and they've put use these [Heather Dorries] 16:11:22 billboards as a way of drawing attention to this history, but at the same time it's a bit, you know. [Heather Dorries] 16:11:29 They're not just saying, Here it is, here's what you need to know. [Heather Dorries] 16:11:31 They're forcing people to do work, you know, they're using an in to say, you know, if you want to learn something first, you have to learn this, and you can follow the hashtag to find out more. [Heather Dorries] 16:11:44 But it's it's, it's a provocation to think about the place and to learn something about the about the history of the place. [Heather Dorries] 16:11:55 And I think that's just, you know, a really compelling example of using art projects to disrupt and rename places. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:12:12 I think we should get questions from the audience. If anyone has a question, just pop it in the chat. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:12:17 Hmm. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:12:25 I think we're small enough group that if people want to ask their question, I think we could probably figure out how to do that. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:12:37 Yeah. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:12:40 We've got, I guess. Tanzel, do you wanna go with yours? [Dena Qaddumi] 16:12:44 I'm just rolling up. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:12:44 I'm just wondering if we should start with the like next one, and I can come back because, you know, short of time. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:12:55 Okay. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:12:56 And I just wanna give any guest who has come here. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:12:59 You know the space. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:12:59 Lindsey, Bremner, if you're here, and would like to ask your question, go ahead and unmute yourself. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:13:06 If not, I can ask it. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:13:12 I can go ahead and ask it then, so I'm assuming this is okay, really glad that Monica raised the issue of developmentalism which has and is radically reshaping many parts of the world in violent and unequal ways supported by depoliticized [Dena Qaddumi] 16:13:30 agendas like the UN Sustainable Development Course, developmentalism is another death project that has other dynamics and colonial projects. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:13:38 Did, sometimes implemented by national elites and consort with transnational corporations. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:13:43 My question is whether you have any thoughts on D. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:13:49 Edevelopmentalizing, planning, and how it may be, differ from decolonizing, planning. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:13:56 Okay, so we have the coupling of colonization and developmentalism, which luckily Jennifer Robinson has written a whole book about. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:14:06 And how do we do? The d on both of them? And are they different? [Dena Qaddumi] 16:14:11 Do you have any, either of you any thoughts on that? [Dena Qaddumi] 16:14:23 Maybe related to it. Extractivism, I suppose. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:14:30 I mean I'll say something, maybe, about the context. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:14:33 I was working in Tunisia, and after, through their process of revolution, one of the questions that kind of came up that was debated in their Parliament was actually renegotiating their relationship with France. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:14:47 So, even though the Revolution was kind of post, the the formal decolonization movement, it brought up a new conversation about their, you know, each economic and cultural relationship with their former kind of call inizers, you know, some 50 60 years after so these things. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:15:11 You know the colonial relationship endures. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:15:16 Unfortunately, and many of those the other part, though, is when that was being questioned. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:15:23 You had other actors coming in and saying that they could develop Tunisia. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:15:27 So now the Uk and the Us have all now, answered Tunisia. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:15:32 Since the Revolution began, and English is becoming more of a of a language rather than French. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:15:44 Any other. Then I wanna jump in on that question. Please. [Monika Streule] 16:15:49 Yeah, maybe I also just to make this point, maybe even stronger. [Monika Streule] 16:15:54 I think there's also in the academic data also, like this buzz words. You know. [Monika Streule] 16:16:01 And then. Now everybody's talking about the colonizing, what the coloniality, and so like former concepts get a bit of the kind of on the waiting bench, or they just we get rid of them. [Monika Streule] 16:16:14 And I think in in this case, with developmentalism, it will be the wrong thing to do, because I it's still a very, very strong discourse. [Monika Streule] 16:16:26 You are confronted in in many places of the world, and also to to. [Monika Streule] 16:16:40 To justify, you know, to justify that and infrastructure makeup project. So it's like the same. [Monika Streule] 16:16:48 Still the same arguments bye, which are mentioned like, okay, there will be workplaces. [Monika Streule] 16:16:56 There will be economic growth. And so we have to do this. [Monika Streule] 16:16:59 Now, because it will be of the benefit of all of us, like the government, would say this, you know, to justify a large infrastructure project, and I think I think developmentalism really helps to understand this kind of discourses. [Monika Streule] 16:17:18 And helps to understand this kind of discourses, and also to to see also the historical continuities of this kind of discourses. [Monika Streule] 16:17:26 And so I I really think it's helpful to stick with it a little longer. [Monika Streule] 16:17:33 And not only always go with the passwords in academic discourse. [Monika Streule] 16:17:40 Just to add these thoughts to it. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:17:55 Maybe I'll go to next question by 10. Alvarez. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:17:59 If they're here, would like to ask it. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:18:04 I think you missed one before. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:18:09 Sure. Yeah, I think these 2 are actually somewhat connected. Okay? So Manas, Murthy, if you're here, would you like to ask your question? [Dena Qaddumi] 16:18:21 Alright. Can I ask it? [Manas Murthy] 16:18:27 Hi, sorry. Yeah, just it's a little early in the morning, though. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:18:27 Hi! [Manas Murthy] 16:18:35 Just I think it's a little wordy, but to me I think as soon as there was a discussion on the good city, my mind immediately went to what is usually used in planning documents, and things called the public good. [Manas Murthy] 16:18:52 It's kind of slightly older literature, but it sort of brought back all these rushing thoughts about eminent domain, and how you know public goods. [Manas Murthy] 16:19:04 The term public would does like this double thing, in which that it links. [Manas Murthy] 16:19:11 Kind of asset mentality of what we call goods and services to the idea of a moral good, which, of course, planning deals with both, improves, you know that's precisely the job of planning is to kind of both allocate distribute assets and goods and [Manas Murthy] 16:19:33 also a kind of, you know, at least in the case of sort of post-independence. [Manas Murthy] 16:19:37 Planning, for example, in India its job is also to identify and designate what is non-sectarian order. [Manas Murthy] 16:19:46 And these kind of ideas of Utopian ideal, good living. [Manas Murthy] 16:19:50 And so I just essentially for me, this is kind of like this kind of weird, material, discursive bridge, where the idea of moral good gets intertwined, completely entangled with the idea of assets and material goods. [Manas Murthy] 16:20:10 So, yeah, just do a thoughts on that. [Heather Dorries] 16:20:17 I would like to respond to that, because I think it's such a great observation, you know, particularly thinking about this slippage in planning between goods as a you know, a moral outcome of planning and goods as a form of property, and it's something that [Heather Dorries] 16:20:36 I've I've written about right. How much planning is organized around the management of property. [Heather Dorries] 16:20:43 So thinking, you know, for talking about thinking about ways of doing, planning, otherwise. [Heather Dorries] 16:20:49 Then, I think, thinking beyond property, or thinking about property differently, and making really clear when we're talking about property, and when we're talking about something else or something that might be accomplished without property or without using the property form as the means of accomplishment, you know that I think that's a really important part [Heather Dorries] 16:21:12 of of planning differently. So I'm so glad that you asked that question. [Heather Dorries] 16:21:16 Thanks. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:21:27 Monica, do you have anything that to that? [Monika Streule] 16:21:31 Yeah, I was just thinking, it's very interesting to think it's like that. [Monika Streule] 16:21:39 And coming from the planning, as you both. [Monika Streule] 16:21:47 For me. This was this reflection also, and I'm still. [Monika Streule] 16:21:49 I'm still into that. On reflecting on what actually all the values, you know, when I think of urban extractivism. [Monika Streule] 16:21:59 So I have to rethink value because it's the not just like that. [Monika Streule] 16:22:04 The resources taken out of of of the land, you know. But what kind of resources then, on what kind of value is taken, and how also all these value produced? [Monika Streule] 16:22:18 So what is then? And who produces these values? And who is then taking advantage or making the business out of it? [Monika Streule] 16:22:26 So I think there is for me a whole, a whole thought which I really want to engage more in that and I think it's a very rich same tool to reflect more about that. [Monika Streule] 16:22:42 Thank you. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:22:47 Okay, so now we'll move to the question by tin. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:22:51 Alvarez, if you're here, and would like to ask it, please unmute yourself. [tin alvarez] 16:22:57 Yes, sure. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for such an insightful discussion. [tin alvarez] 16:23:04 I'm really, really interested in this provocation that there could be something beyond justice, that there could be something more than justice. [tin alvarez] 16:23:14 So I wanted to return to the title of this event. [tin alvarez] 16:23:19 The colonial cities beyond justice, and just told the case there, and ask if Heather and Monica could eliminate what they think are the limits of a justice centered framework, and I also wanted to clarify. [tin alvarez] 16:23:33 What, then, is the goal of the of a decolonial city? [tin alvarez] 16:23:37 If not, just. Thank you. [Monika Streule] 16:23:46 Thank you. Tina. I mean, it's very challenging. [Monika Streule] 16:23:49 This question, and I mean all the all the questions that they organize, that we're asking us to think about. [Monika Streule] 16:23:58 And and to comment, I think there are large, huge questions, and I mean I don't have the answers to it, but I think there are very interesting to reflect more about them and about justice. [Monika Streule] 16:24:13 I think for me now this moment, to think about justice and city, and and Dec. [Monika Streule] 16:24:23 Coloniality. It really brought me to, to question and to problematize what we actually think is the good thing, or what we think is justice, and what we think the city, as I was saying in my Introduction. [Monika Streule] 16:24:40 And it's not something I would just discour and say, Okay, we can go rid of justice, and and we can events something new. [Monika Streule] 16:24:49 But to critically question, and always, if we do that for me, the main thing is then to ask if if this does mean the same thing for everybody, or what is about also historical difference can that be like just the same justice for everybody at the same time, I mean this generalizing [Monika Streule] 16:25:14 universalized in claims. I am always very reluctant to them, and I think it's a very important to rethink it and and question it and problematize it. [Monika Streule] 16:25:25 So this is what this title and these questions they do with me. And I also think, now in this dialogue and the conversation, yeah, we have here in this space brings more any thoughts about that. Yeah. [Heather Dorries] 16:25:46 Yeah, I agree, these questions are really great and also very challenging. [Heather Dorries] 16:25:52 So when I'm thinking about decolonization or decoloniality, one of the pieces of writing that it's been really influential, and my thinking is the piece by can Edward Yang called decolonization it's not a metaphor. [Heather Dorries] 16:26:09 And I think they they make a. They make a number of really important points in that essay. [Heather Dorries] 16:26:17 One of the points they talk about is are the material dimensions of decolonization. [Heather Dorries] 16:26:24 You know, if we think about colonization as a process which resulted in dispossession and assimilation, then decolonization has to be about the return of land and the and self determination right for people who have losses things, and they also make the point that [Heather Dorries] 16:26:49 you know decolonization is not a metaphor for social justice. [Heather Dorries] 16:26:53 You know that's where the title of their paper comes on, comes from, you know. [Heather Dorries] 16:26:59 There, there's a lot of ways, and I think that I see this particularly happening in universities in North America, where every university now has a has a diversity, equity, equity, and I can't remember Dei committee. [Heather Dorries] 16:27:12 And there's a lot of talk about, you know, decolonizing, you know. [Heather Dorries] 16:27:18 Geography, decolonizing everything right. Everything's being decolonized. [Heather Dorries] 16:27:24 And this ends up just being used. It's just, you know, if you are being very cynical, it's just about making people feel better about the conditions that we're confronted with without actually changing anything and I think that's precisely what their paper is [Heather Dorries] 16:27:39 our giving again. So yeah, I'm not. [Heather Dorries] 16:27:45 Against justice. I think one of one of the points that I wanna make is that the way that justice has been framed in dominant planning discourses has been to has been very much within Western framework. [Heather Dorries] 16:27:59 So within frameworks that are talking about, you know recognition in particular, in planning or inviting people into processes, you know, to participate in processes that are, you know, not actually helping communities right? [Heather Dorries] 16:28:18 And so what's the point of participating in processes actually doing harm? [Heather Dorries] 16:28:23 So, I'm not, you know. I'm not saying let's not think about justice, but I think as Monica is saying, let's think critically about justice and what we mean when we're talking about justice, and let's also not forget that decoloniality, or [Heather Dorries] 16:28:39 decolonization has a very includes a very specific set of political and material demands. [tin alvarez] 16:28:50 Thanks, so much. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:28:57 We have a couple more questions. Are both of you happy to stay for 5 to 10 more minutes? [Dena Qaddumi] 16:29:06 Is that okay? I'll just link the last question to one that was, I think, a direct. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:29:14 Message one which was, maybe this is more directed to heather. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:29:22 What do you think about the need to start a deprofessionalization process, and urban planning to decolonize it? [Dena Qaddumi] 16:29:29 And I wonder, maybe connecting that to if planning is situated within the state you talked about sovereignty. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:29:39 You know. How is this self-proessing prophecy? [Dena Qaddumi] 16:29:43 If sort of not being able to think in another, or, you know, planning otherwise, if it's situated in the State, and it's professionalized in such a way. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:29:52 So! [Heather Dorries] 16:29:54 Yeah, and I think you know where my mind goes. [Heather Dorries] 16:29:57 There's you know that if I'm thinking about the ways that communities already planned for themselves already know what they need, and getting out of the way when possible, right or when you know when. [Heather Dorries] 16:30:15 When that is possible, and thinking about all of the knowledge that is already within communities. [Heather Dorries] 16:30:22 I think you know we have some of the tools, and some of the questions goes back to community development approaches from the seventies and eighties. [Heather Dorries] 16:30:33 I think there's some good tools there, that I think they were often also about. [Heather Dorries] 16:30:38 You know, helping communities to participate and intervene and in state, like processes. [Heather Dorries] 16:30:44 So maybe you know. So maybe it's worth returning to some of those approaches, but also bringing to bear all of the knowledge that communities have and all of the using the political agenda that is being set by communities to orient those practices and processes. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:31:13 Monica, do you wanna respond to that? Or I'll move to the. [Monika Streule] 16:31:18 No, I think maybe a a final one. [Monika Streule] 16:31:22 Yeah. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:31:23 Yeah, I think this is the last one since you. So I was wondering. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:31:28 This is from I was wondering how the frame of dec-cloniality would approach anti-immigrant social movements. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:31:37 Such social movements in India often have complex histories of engagement with ecological transformation. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:31:44 State Directed development and indigeneity. Big issue happening right now in India to either of you. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:31:55 Have any thoughts on that. [Monika Streule] 16:31:59 I'm afraid I'm not. I don't know. [Monika Streule] 16:32:03 Much to nothing about this context. So it's difficult to me to say something here. [Monika Streule] 16:32:10 I'm sorry. [Heather Dorries] 16:32:14 Yeah. Sorry I was. Gonna say, say, the same thing. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:32:21 Yeah, I think, maybe this goes down to the also, the naming. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:32:28 And where does the word? How we harness or like operationalize indigeneity? [Dena Qaddumi] 16:32:34 And for what ends. And that is very context, specific. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:32:41 I think we got most of the questions, and just about. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:32:46 It's the last one, I think. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:32:50 The community approaches. Yeah, I think that was sort of right, like referred to. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:32:51 Yes. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:32:57 Okay, yeah, before. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:33:02 Yeah, so I guess we're coming to a close. Thank you both so much. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:33:09 Bobby, do you wanna have any last words? Hmm! [Bobby Farnan] 16:33:13 No, I I just like to say thank you very much for taking the time to engage with us, as in the collective, and for your no thoughtful comments and it's been really, really, really great, and to everyone in the audience for coming along. [Bobby Farnan] 16:33:26 And sticking with it. It's really my sunny day here in the Uk. [Bobby Farnan] 16:33:31 They don't happen often, so thank you. Thank you for joining. [Heather Dorries] 16:33:37 Thank you for having me. [Monika Streule] 16:33:39 Yeah, thank you so much. And I really think, just to comment also on this, it's so great. [Monika Streule] 16:33:44 You're organized as a collective, I permit. I think that's really also so important to find different ways of organizing. And collectively, I think that's that's the way it will thank you. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:33:57 Thank you. Thanks for joining us. Have a great day. Thanks. [Heather Dorries] 16:34:02 Bye, bye! [Dena Qaddumi] 16:34:02 Everyone online. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:34:17 No. If you wanna stick around. Yeah. Well, okay. Alright. [Bobby Farnan] 16:34:21 I'll hang about. Yeah. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:34:42 Okay, that's. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:35:05 Okay. Should I shoot? I don't know if we just wanna have like a quick 2 min. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:35:14 I guess. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:35:14 No, I mean. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:35:19 Hmm, yeah. Sorry with the I wasn't. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:35:23 There weren't that many questions and so it didn't seem like we needed to like group them. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:35:29 And then all of a sudden, they came at the end, and then I got a bit how to do it. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:35:36 So, yeah. [Bobby Farnan] 16:35:37 Thanks for Fielding. Those you know. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:35:39 Yeah, no, no problem. Yeah. And it worked out fine for people just to ask them. So. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:35:45 I mean, I think it was great, because, in a way, some of the questions you start to see that it's it's a bit challenging to like after listening to this, like, you know, because it is really questioning everything that people might hold near. And there. [Bobby Farnan] 16:36:00 Hmm, yeah. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:00 And like so. But in any case, I mean thank you. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:04 So much I will I. So I would the recording, and then I have the transcript. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:13 So that, yeah. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:36:15 So it works good. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:18 Yeah, so everything's there. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:23 Hmm! I'll share it. I'll share it first with the group. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:28 And then, of course, we can discuss where what happens next to this. [Bobby Farnan] 16:36:33 Sounds good. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:33 Yeah. Okay. Alright. Dot our time. Now, yeah. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:36:34 Yeah, that's good. [Bobby Farnan] 16:36:39 Yeah. Thanks. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:36:41 Yay done! [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:44 Yeah. [Bobby Farnan] 16:36:45 Yeah, I think it worked really, well. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:47 Okay. Alright. See? You guys, yeah, sound like so long in the making. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:36:49 Alright, have a good day, enjoy the. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:36:53 Oh, my, God, huh! Yeah, yeah, just one thing for the record. [Bobby Farnan] 16:36:54 I know it's kind of like it's kind of a. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:36:58 Yeah. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:37:01 I'll say I really there was this idea of life and death and a politics of life, and you know I this you know, I thought that was so common in both it's a sort of like new way. [Bobby Farnan] 16:37:07 Yeah. [Bobby Farnan] 16:37:13 Yeah. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:37:16 I mean we. If you go back to the literature, I don't think anyone speaks in that way. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:37:22 In the 15 years ago, even like 5 years ago. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:37:25 So I think there is something new, you know, if we, if I have to say like what was beyond justice, I mean this idea of a good life, as of you know, in relation to good City. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:37:35 I thought that was really interesting. It's like. [Bobby Farnan] 16:37:38 A decorative biopolitics. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:37:40 Yeah, yeah, no. I mean, yeah, like, you have, like, embassies, network politics and sort of like that. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:37:47 But what is sort of like the the opposite spectrum? [Tanzil Shafique] 16:37:51 So you have, like the city of Death, the AR beside, and all of that. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:37:56 But what is the city of life? So I thought I thought it was really interesting, because I felt it was pushing towards that. [Bobby Farnan] 16:38:02 Hmm! [Tanzil Shafique] 16:38:03 We didn't frame it. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:38:03 Yeah, like articulating the good city as a city for life. And probably when you like, reiterated what she was saying about like how the categorizations are result of how these things contribute to life making. Like, if not yeah, just like underscoring that was really really good. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:38:08 Off. Yeah. [Bobby Farnan] 16:38:22 Yeah, I think that was an interesting point, because I've been stuck with this thing about classification as being an instrument or technology for reproducing kind of marginalization. [Bobby Farnan] 16:38:32 But but then she made the point that there's a relational of theation involved in that that can be severed, and a new one can be formed. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:38:39 Yeah. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:38:40 Yeah. [Bobby Farnan] 16:38:41 The service of life, which is super super kind of interesting entry, point. [Bobby Farnan] 16:38:44 I thought. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:38:45 Yeah. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:38:45 And also, I think, what we confirm to them is throughout. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:38:50 The conversation is sort of like this limitation of recognition, of justice. [Bobby Farnan] 16:38:54 No! [Tanzil Shafique] 16:38:54 You know, and the limits of it, and you know I think the politics of recognition is sort of like, you know, beyond we are at a point beyond that. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:39:06 So that's also, I think you know, it's not just our hunch. [Bobby Farnan] 16:39:12 Hmm! [Tanzil Shafique] 16:39:12 I think it's like across the board I like to. I. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:39:16 One thing I don't think it's I don't think it's whether we planned it too much, but in the sense that I thought it was nice, because there is a North American versus a Latin American soil to this conversation, I think if we're [Tanzil Shafique] 16:39:31 bringing it down into, you know. If this conversation ends up in one chapter, you know, and then people can start of editing, and you know, putting some of these references that they're bringing, I think it's a good dialogue between 2 geographies, which is also very very [Bobby Farnan] 16:39:47 Yeah. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:39:47 useful, because oftentimes you look at things in isolation. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:39:52 So, yeah, I mean. [Bobby Farnan] 16:39:53 And have they raised that point in terms of knowledge production around set their colonialism as being kind of and gocentric. And you know, having that kind of juxtaposition with Monica's stuff would be yeah, would be really productive. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:40:05 Yeah, I mean, I think there is enough material to have this conversation. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:40:10 I mean, it's I think it's worth preserving. [Bobby Farnan] 16:40:12 Hmm! [Tanzil Shafique] 16:40:12 It. You are, you know, having it in some format. [Bobby Farnan] 16:40:16 Yeah. Oops. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:40:17 So that's good. Okay, alright, how was gonna lose this thought? So I just had, you know, just said it. [Bobby Farnan] 16:40:23 Is it recorded? Is it recorded from Costello? [Tanzil Shafique] 16:40:23 Now it's recorded in the Transcript, not the video. [Bobby Farnan] 16:40:28 Okay. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:40:28 So we'll still have access to this in the transcript. [Bobby Farnan] 16:40:31 Awesome. [Dena Qaddumi] 16:40:32 That's cool. [Tanzil Shafique] 16:40:32 Oh, okay. Alright. See? You guys later. Yeah. [Bobby Farnan] 16:40:35 Okay, thanks guys.